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Transcript
Interview– ABC Sydney, Mornings with Thomas Oriti
16June 2025
Subjects: G7 meeting, Albanese-Trump meeting, US tariffs on Australia, Liberal Party policy process
E&OE
Thomas Oriti:
Samantha Maiden, political editor for News.com.au, joins us today along with Maria Kovacic, Liberal Senator for New South Wales. Good morning to you both.
Sam Maiden:
Good morning.
Senator Maria Kovacic:
Good morning.
Thomas Oriti:
Senator, I want to start with you – can I just get your thoughts on these extraordinary events in the Middle East over the last few days? The Iran–Israel conflict, airstrikes have resumed – a fourth day now of rising tensions. We first found out about this on Friday afternoon, our time. Do you think there’s a genuine cause for concern now that this could deteriorate into a much broader regional war?
Senator Maria Kovacic:
I think it's completely natural to be worried about the destabilising impacts of this growing conflict. The Iranian regime's ability to acquire nuclear weapons poses a serious and direct threat to world peace and to our stability more broadly – especially as it continues to engage in terrorism by supporting its proxies: Hamas in Gaza, Hezbollah in southern Lebanon, and the Houthi rebels in Yemen. So it is an absolute concern for all of us.
Thomas Oriti:
Samantha Maiden, we're also hearing about these extraordinary developments this morning – Donald Trump apparently blocked an Israeli plan to kill Iran’s supreme leader in recent days. I mean, this is an extraordinary time in the world. I know I’m not speaking to either of you as absolute experts in the Middle East conflict or global geopolitics. But this meeting at the G7 – it’s going ahead between Anthony Albanese and Donald Trump. Is the timing unfortunate though?
Sam Maiden:
Well, I think the timing couldn’t be better because there’s a lot to talk about. Look, there’s no doubt that while world leaders are descending on Canada for the G7 summit, the most important conversations are going to take place on the sideline – and that’s exactly where the Prime Minister will be talking to Donald Trump. He’s going to talk tariffs, he’s naturally going to talk about AUKUS, and no doubt he’ll talk about the Middle East as well.
I think it’s interesting this morning – it does put the Australian government in an interesting position. Richard Marles is being grilled on the morning programs, as has the Labor frontbencher Amanda Rishworth, about whether Australia actually supports the Israeli strikes in Iran. They weren’t really completely transparent on that – basically arguing that they wanted to see the situation cooled down.
Thomas Oriti:
Senator Kovacic, does the Liberal Party have a stance on this?
Senator Maria Kovacic:
Look, I think having a conversation between President Trump and the Prime Minister is really important, and we've been supportive of that from the outset. And as Samantha has outlined, those three key topics will be at the top of that agenda. We want the Prime Minister to do really well in these discussions – that’s what we want. We think it’s important for all Australians, and we want to ensure that the outcome of those discussions is that Australia gets the best possible deal – as it relates both to tariffs and to AUKUS.
We want AUKUS to proceed – we put it in place – we think it's very, very important. And it's not just about submarines. This is also about information sharing, intelligence sharing, and quantum technology. So it's very important that these conversations are successful.
Thomas Oriti:
And as we've been hearing over the last few days – “there is no plan B.” I want to get to that in a minute. But just while I stay with you, Senator, for a moment – there was a lot of talk during the campaign about which party would be best equipped to negotiate with Donald Trump. You're on the other side of politics, but credit where it's due – is this a good look for the Prime Minister? He's secured this meeting.
Senator Maria Kovacic:
We’ve been wanting the Prime Minister to have this conversation for a long time. So we are happy that he has been able to secure a face-to-face meeting with President Trump. Where that occurs isn’t the key priority – as long as it happens. The fact that it’s happening on the sidelines of the G7 – that is good.
The important thing to focus on here is that he's able to very assertively put Australia's case forward, particularly in relation to tariffs and AUKUS. In terms of tariffs, we want to ensure that we get the best deal possible. We note that the UK has been able to negotiate the steel tariffs, and we want that same outcome for Australia.
Thomas Oriti:
Samantha Maiden, you mentioned a moment ago this couldn’t be better timing. But the reason I questioned the timing is because with everything else that's been happening around the world over the last few days, I’d hazard a guess that the US–Australia relationship won’t be front and centre of Donald Trump’s mind. He’s unlikely to suddenly say anything direct about AUKUS – “You’ll get a tariff carve-out, no worries, it’s all sorted.”
Sam Maiden:
Well, at the end of the day, the meeting has to take place – and Australia needs to talk to him face-to-face. So the meeting is going to come at the time the meeting comes. Yes, there will obviously be distractions. And no, there was no suggestion – I would have thought – that there would be a firm outcome on AUKUS, given that they’ve just announced this 30-day review. But despite the distractions, I think that Australia wanted a meeting – and it’s got one.
Thomas Oriti:
AUKUS is set to be raised as an issue. The US is undertaking a review. The government has been saying, “Hey, no cause for alarm – this is normal. They’re a new administration. That’s normal.” Under the Starmer government, the UK did it as well. Senator, should Australia be worried? We've been told there's no plan B here.
Senator Maria Kovacic:
Well, I think what the Prime Minister needs to do is seek assurances from President Trump to safeguard AUKUS. And as I noted before – it's not just about submarines. It's about broader sharing of intelligence and information. So it’s important that the Prime Minister is able to articulate clearly to President Trump how important this is – and to ensure we get his commitment to AUKUS ongoing.
Thomas Oriti:
Sam, what are your thoughts on that? That point’s been made – the UK did the same thing. Is it fair enough? Is it normal? Is it proper for the new administration in the US to do exactly the same thing?
Sam Maiden:
Well, it might be proper – but I think it does highlight the fragility of these arrangements. There’s been, dare I say it – to use a Mark Latham/Paul Keating term – a “conga line” of former prime ministers come out, whether it was Paul Keating or Malcolm Turnbull, to raise concerns about this. Even Barnaby Joyce this morning on Sunrise has been saying that we need to have some sort of plan B.
Look, it's a tricky one. You could use a lot of words that wouldn’t be unparliamentary – let alone capable of being said on breakfast radio – about what the situation is with the submarines. But this has been an ongoing issue with successive governments.
Thomas Oriti:
Do you think we’ll ever see them? Sorry to interrupt – but with all this talk about whether we’re actually going to get these subs, or whether we’ll see into the administration’s “America First” agenda – will we ever see them?
Sam Maiden:
Well, I’m pretty sceptical about how it’s going to work. And I think that’s the danger. We’ve already given them hundreds of millions of dollars – and now they’re demanding we spend more on defence. That might be a perfectly legitimate and important thing to do, but I think there are a lot of question marks about the fragility of what's on offer here.
Thomas Oriti:
Scepticism from Samantha Maiden. As you pointed out, Senator, this was done under your government previously. Will we get the subs? What’s your thought on that?
Senator Maria Kovacic:
Well, I think what’s really important to focus on at the moment is how important this is – and to get that commitment from the US President. But I think what’s also really important for us to note is that we’re actually not spending enough right now to defend ourselves.
In the last election, we took the policy to increase defence spending to 2.5% of GDP within five years, and 3% within ten years. The current challenging strategic situation globally means that we have to spend more on defence. This is an area we must focus on. And what’s happened over the weekend, I think, clearly points to that as being a key priority for this government.
Thomas Oriti:
Peter Dutton wanted to do that in the campaign. With respect – it didn’t appear to be a huge vote winner.
Senator Maria Kovacic:
I think what’s really important is how you communicate the necessity of this. And I think this past weekend has really shown that we can’t afford to under-invest in our national security.
Thomas Oriti:
Was that communication not done properly during the election campaign?
Senator Maria Kovacic:
I think in terms of communication, there’s been a clear message sent to us by the Australian public – that they didn’t hear clearly what we were telling them was going to be a clear set of priorities and policies.
Thomas Oriti:
Sam, do you think there’s a tactic here? Do you think AUKUS is being used as this broader bargaining chip, considering – as Senator Kovacic has said – the Trump administration is asking Australia and other allies to dramatically boost their defence spending?
Sam Maiden:
I think that’s self-evident. Just about any expert you talk to suggests that Australia should lift its defence spending. But in terms of whether this is being used as a bargaining chip – I think that’s a legitimate observation.
Thomas Oriti:
Sam, just quickly on the G7 again – we’ve talked about Iran–Israel. But look at what happened in the United States yesterday – those protests on our TV screens, correspondents breathing in tear gas on the streets of Los Angeles. An extraordinary situation while this military parade, highly divisive, was happening in Washington.
Does that put the Prime Minister in a tricky position, given the timing – a photo op with the US President, a day after tens of thousands of people rallied against him in his home country?
Sam Maiden:
No, I don’t think that’s an issue at all. At the end of the day, we are talking to the US President about the interests that serve us as a nation – and that’s an important conversation to have.
The idea that we would be reluctant to have that conversation with him because of some protest in the United States or whatever else is going on domestically – I think that would be very myopic. We need to talk to him. We're going to talk to him. And it's important that occurs. There should be no suggestion we’d pull back from that meeting because of something going on in the periphery.
Thomas Oriti:
Indeed. Senator, I feel like while I’ve got you here, I should ask you about those developments over the weekend. What did you make of that military parade in Washington – a highly divisive show of force on the streets of the capital?
Senator Maria Kovacic:
I think you can’t really comment on what another ally decides to do to celebrate the 250th anniversary of their military. It’s not something they do every year – but it is a significant milestone.
I also agree with Sam that it’s very important for the Prime Minister to have this meeting with President Trump. It’s critical for us to have those conversations started and continued. And the most important way to do that is face-to-face – so our Prime Minister can put our case forward and ensure we get the best possible outcome.
Thomas Oriti:
Before I let you go – just finally – you mentioned the communication around defence spending. We’ve learned the Liberal Party is going to conduct what's been described as a radical investigation into the future of the party after the election result.
Back to what you said about the lack of communication – how much does the party need to transform, in your view?
Senator Maria Kovacic:
Our leader, Sussan Ley, has been very clear on this – and she’s going to make some announcements in the next few days in relation to a review.
We are very much focused on a process of listening – and then, based on that consultation, a robust and thorough policy development program. It’s very clear that needs to be done – and that’s exactly what we are doing.
Thomas Oriti:
Great to have you on. Liberal Senator for New South Wales, Maria Kovacic – thank you very much for joining us.
Senator Maria Kovacic:
Thank you for having me.
Thomas Oriti:
Sam Maiden, political editor for News.com.au – thank you very much, as always. Appreciate it.
Sam Maiden:
Thank you.