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Subjects: PM Albanese’s address to the Curtin Research Institute, Australia’s relationship with the United States, Melbourne childcare centre incident.
E&OE
Hamish Macdonald:
Good morning. You’re with us for Monday morning. Samantha Maiden is here from news.com.au and Senator Maria Kovacic, from Sydney.
Very good morning to both of you.
Sam Maiden:
Good morning. I'm excited that you're back.
Hamish Macdonald:
Thank you. I'm excited that I'm back as well.
Sam Maiden, just talk to us about this speech. Why has it made so many headlines? It had a lot of historical references in it to the Curtin era. It is, of course, the Curtin speech. And in many ways, he's the man that's remembered, respected for creating Australia's alliance with the United States.
Sam Maiden:
Yeah. Look, I think part of the problem with speeches like this is that they're being aimed at more than one audience. And because there was an element of opaqueness that you often get in that sort of diplomatic speak, people have kind of jumped on various things and basically suggested that, you know, they're trying to draw a line between us and the United States.
And the relationship, they argue, is already a little bit wonky, playing into these arguments about the Prime Minister finding it tricky to actually have a sit-down with Donald Trump.
But, you know, in the speech, he basically talks about this idea that, for example, John Curtin resisted sending Australian troops to Burma – that this could have ended in catastrophe – and making the point that even though he was making it very clear that the relationship with the United States was very important, we also need to sort of have our own sovereign position.
The problem is – what the hell does that mean, right? And I think it is a bit confusing. He's obviously going to have some big meetings with China this week, and so people are just a bit confused, I think, about what it all means.
Obviously, his critics are jumping all over it to say that it's a misstep. But I do think part of the problem is that it's just speaking in riddles. And I think that can be very dangerous in terms of playing into the hands of critics.
Hamish Macdonald:
Senator Maria Kovacic, is there any problem that you see with this speech and the contents of it?
Senator Maria Kovacic:
Yeah. Look, I agree with Sam. It's a very confusing speech in terms of – what is your purpose and what message are you trying to send?
And not only is the content a problem, the timing is a real problem. You know, we've got the US administration making decisions at the moment in relation to tariffs. It came out this morning that some letters are coming out. We don't even know whether we're getting a letter, we don't know whether we're exempt from getting a letter, we don't know what is going on.
And the reason we don't know what is going on is because our government and our Prime Minister don't know, because they don't have the strength of relationship with the United States that they should have.
We are some 245 days since President Trump was elected, and our Prime Minister is yet to meet with him face to face. We need to understand why that hasn't happened and how that impacts us.
And to actually have this speech come out in such a sort of confusing sort of messaging, in the week that there's going to be announcements about tariffs – I don't think it's particularly great judgment.
Hamish Macdonald:
I've read the speech. What's confusing about it to you?
I mean, he's just saying, isn't he, that at the centre of Australia's strategic relationships is our alliance with the United States – that remains – but that we need to be alive to the different strategic realities in our region, and in that sense, more independent.
And couldn't you argue that that's actually what Donald Trump has asked of America's allies? To stand on your own two feet a little bit more, rather than rely on America to bail you out all the time?
Senator Maria Kovacic:
I think it's more of an anecdotal message rather than a clear message about what you want to do and what you are going to do.
And that's what the Prime Minister hasn't done. And let's be very clear – the Coalition wants Australia to do well. We want the Prime Minister to do well in these discussions and negotiations, not only with the US but also with China, who is our major trading partner and one of our neighbours.
But it just seems to be this sort of sitting on the fence in the middle, making a bunch of different noises without actually saying what you're going to do and how you're going to do it.
Hamish Macdonald:
Sam Maiden, diplomacy is often delivered in fairly nuanced terms and framing, with historical references – particularly the Chinese government will often use historical reference points to craft messages about what it's doing.
Could it also be argued that the Prime Minister's playing a clever game here, as a middle power contending with two very big powers that are taking pretty robust positions on things at the moment, and that maybe it is better for Australia to be a little more in the middle and keep them guessing somewhat?
Sam Maiden:
Well, look, I mean, I don't know if America and China are necessarily always completely exercised as their first-order issue on what Australia thinks.
Not saying that they're not interested, but I'm not sure if they spend a great deal of time staying up at night.
The one thing I would say, which is sort of a slightly different but adjacent point, is – I'm not attracted to the idea that just because Donald Trump has been too busy to meet with Anthony Albanese, that we should be genuflecting, grovelling, running around.
I mean, he has basically treated Australia pretty badly. We've got to be honest about that in terms of these tariff decisions.
So, I'm not necessarily attracted to the idea that we should be grovelling.
Hamish Macdonald:
And just on that, Sam, would you maybe be a bit relieved if you were the Australian Prime Minister and you didn't have to have a face-to-face with Donald Trump, given the way he's excoriated so many other leaders?
Sam Maiden:
But he clearly wants one. And he's clearly trying to get one.
I mean, he was at one point talking about darting off to NATO, but then if he had, he probably would have ended up in an unfortunate discussion about Australia's defence spending and whether or not it was anywhere near the defence spending that the Europeans are looking at – which it's not.
So, look, I mean, he clearly wants a meeting – there's no doubt about that. And I think a meeting is important.
But I do think there is an element of speaking in code and in riddles. And I think, you know, it would be helpful if the Prime Minister came out and was a little bit more explanatory of what on earth he was talking about.
Hamish Macdonald:
It's 9:16. You're listening to mornings on 702 ABC Sydney – 11 degrees here in Parramatta, 13 degrees in Gosford at the moment and 9 degrees in Cronulla.
I'm talking to Sam Maiden from news.com.au and Liberal Senator Maria Kovacic.
We heard from Adele Ferguson earlier – another investigation tonight on 730 around standards in the childcare system.
Maria Kovacic, you've got a range of portfolios. One of them is adjacent to the issues of child safety and protection. What do you think could be done, given as Adele was articulating, there is this huge demand for more childcare workers and not enough in the system – but then the flipside is you get reduced standards and sped up training times?
Senator Maria Kovacic:
Yeah. The first comment I'll make is, the allegations of what came out last week are horrific, and we will work with the government in any way needed in order to increase and strengthen protections in that space.
I think we need to have a broader look at what childcare looks like. It's currently centralised around childcare centres.
Do we look at different options in relation to home-based care – in terms of nannies with families with more children? Do we register childcare workers and enable them to come into the home?
Do we look at the options of grandparents and how they can offer appropriate care within the framework of that system?
So, I think we need to have a broader discussion around how we can make this work better.
The reality is, in the current environment, both parents need to work, and we have to find a way to ensure that the childcare system that is available to families is actually something that is fit for purpose and provides the right care for those families' needs.
Hamish Macdonald:
And can I ask your position on the role of men in childcare centres?
Obviously, there's been a lot of calls. We've been hearing it on the text line. Adele Ferguson's view is that's not the right answer. What's your position?
Senator Maria Kovacic:
Look, I think we need to have a look at the problems here rather than pointing in one direction. I understand why people have made that particular call.
We also have to recognise there are some great early educators who are male and who do an outstanding job.
What has happened here – or is alleged to have happened – are a terrible series of events, but we can't just point to that being the solution.
We have to look at the current frameworks, how the sector has been let down in relation to those safety frameworks, and what we need to do to strengthen those very, very quickly.
And as I noted at the outset, we are ready to work with the government on that. Our leader, Sussan Ley, has written to the Prime Minister, as well as publicly stating that we will do whatever we need to do to readily and robustly strengthen anything that requires change – but obviously based on proper briefing and information in that regard.
Hamish Macdonald:
Sam Maiden, Adele Ferguson was pointing to a broader issue here, which is that there is a plan to deliver more access to childcare in Australia.
And yet there are these key workforce issues. Her story tonight is making a clear link between the availability of workers in the sector, the standards, and the issues that we're seeing flow on from that.
So how does the Commonwealth Government deal with that?
Sam Maiden:
Well, I think that I've thought about these issues quite a lot. I mean, I've got three children – they're way beyond childcare use now – but I've had kids in childcare.
Look, I think that there are problems you can deal with immediately and then there are deeper problems. The workforce issue has been around for a really long time, and it is a significant problem.
We've tried to pay people more, but I think sometimes it's still around the margins.
There are questions over for-profit versus not-for-profit. I'm not particularly attracted to the idea of nannies – it gets thrown up a lot.
The reality is that I think it's always going to be more supportive in a lot of cases to have people in childcare centres, where they can take a break and hand over to someone else and all of those things. There's certainly a lot more supervision.
I think once you put childcare completely into the home – there are a lot of amazing home care providers – but I think that would potentially provide less oversight rather than more.
One of the things I've wondered about – and maybe better minds have decided this is a good idea – but I've had a bit of worry about the fact they're going to ban devices in childcare centres.
If it works, fine. But this is a really grim observation – a large number of people who've been convicted of child sex offences, whether it's in childcare centres or elsewhere, particularly with younger children that can't really give evidence in an effective way in court – it's through those videos.
And so, yeah, it worries me a bit. It's a horrible thing to think about, but without those videos – without some of those videos being made by people abusing children – there wouldn't have been convictions.
And so, I just wonder about that.
Hamish Macdonald:
That is a terribly grim thing to think about. Do you have a position on cameras in childcare centres, Maria?
Senator Maria Kovacic:
Yeah, I think it's such a challenging one. And the points Sam makes are quite valid.
Our shared priority is child safety, and how we actually achieve that is really important.
The reality is that small children – particularly babies – are unable to articulate what has transpired. So, what are the mechanisms to ensure their safety and ensure we never, ever have to have conversations like this again in relation to the allegations we've heard last week?
Sam Maiden:
I think the other thing – just quickly – and this is a much broader discussion, is that if you can support people – whether it's the mum or the dad – to stay at home a bit longer to look after their children in the home, you know, we breezily accept that you need two people in the workforce.
I've got to race straight back to work. But if there are ways to support people or extended family in helping with kids and getting them to childcare a little bit later – when they're 2 or 3 – I think that's something else to examine.
Whether there are radical solutions such as talking to the banks about letting people take a price mortgage for a couple of years, there must be alternatives to the way we do it now.
Hamish Macdonald:
Sam Maiden, Senator Maria Kovacic – thank you very much.
Sam Maiden:
Thank you.
Senator Maria Kovacic:
Thank you.
[ENDS]