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Transcript
Interview – Guardian Australian Politics Podcast
12 June 2025
Subjects:2025 Federal Election, Sussan Ley’s leadership, climate change, energy policy,connecting with women, connecting with multicultural communities
E&OE
Tom McIlroy
Well,Senator Maria Kovacic, welcometo Australian Politics Live. Thanks for joining us.
Senator Maria Kovacic
Oh,it's my pleasure. Thank you for having me.
Tom McIlroy
Congratulationson your appointment to the shadow ministry. Sussan Ley, the Opposition Leaderhas named you as her Shadow Assistant Minister and you have responsibilities inthe women's portfolio as well as for child protection and the prevention offamily violence. Important work at an important time for the party. Tell me howyou get started in such a big set of portfolio responsibilities.
Senator Maria Kovacic
Theyare big responsibilities and it's a privilege to be afforded the trust toactually do such significant and important work. I've been having somebriefings from colleagues who are handing over to get an understanding and asense of where these portfolios were at before, and then obviously doingsubstantive reading in order to get an understanding more broadly of what thecore issues are across each of those portfolios.
Tom McIlroy
Andyou've been in Parliament for a few years now, since 2023, representing NewSouth Wales as a senator. It's a fascinating time for the Coalition and for theLiberal Party in particular. Tell me your sense of where things stand now a bitmore out there, a bit more than a month out from the federal election result.
Senator Maria Kovacic
It'sat a stage where we're listening and our latest, Sussan Ley has spoken aboutthis often, that when you have a result, as we did on the 3rd of May, which wasa very strong response, a negative response, people didn't vote for us. We losta lot of important seats. We had candidates who worked really hard, who didn'tget the outcomes that they should have.
Senator Maria Kovacic
Sothe correct approach is to actually reflect on that, to listen to stakeholders,to the community, to people who voted and actually get an understanding ofwhere that went wrong so that we can properly inform future policy directionsand what we're going to do to change that. I think we did a very good job ofpointing to the deficiencies of the Labor government and the things that theyweren't doing right.
Senator Maria Kovacic
Ithink where we let Australians and ourselves down was that we didn't properlyarticulate how we were going to do that and to do that in a way thatAustralians could see was going to be effective and aligned with their values.And Sussan again has spoken about that in terms of reflecting and representingmodern Australia. So that's where we are at the moment doing that primary andinitial work.
Tom McIlroy
Andyou and your colleagues must feel a bit shellshocked from the result. I mean,losing a party leader saying Labor win such a thumping majority on a humanlevel and showing up to work level every day, it must have been prettydisappointing for you.
Senator Maria Kovacic
It'stough on a human level. It's bruising. It's bruising, absolutely bruising. Youknow, people worked very, very hard and, you know, engaged. We had sittingemployees like Jenny Wear, David Coleman, Kate Waller hand a leader, as youmentioned, Peter Dutton, our former leader. You know, former ministers, shadowministers like Michael Sukkar, people who lost their seats and worked hard intheir communities. And then we had candidates across the board who just wentout there and did their absolute best to engage and to show why they were, youknow, a potential tentative or the best option in their seats. And you go anddo that work in good faith. And when you get delivered in an election result,as bad and as tough as the one that we got, you know, a lot of reflection hasto go on. And it does hurt. It does impact you. It is a shock. It was a very,very tough result for us. There's no question about that.
Tom McIlroy
Inthe wake of the result, you said that you thought part of the problem was thatliberal policies, coalition policies were not in alignment with the values ofthe party. How do you fix that problem if you take it back to basics approach?If you start from the ground level with rebuilding policy, how do you make surethey are closer, more closely aligned to liberal values?
Senator Maria Kovacic
Ithink there are two elements to that. It's actually again linked to thatlistening pace, but also listening in the broader community as well as withinour own party. But actually having those robust policy discussions, testingthose policies amongst the party room and our broader party base before we actuallybring them out to the electorate. So actually doing that consultative work in areally thorough and meaningful way, I think, you know, it's very much likethat. You know, colloquially, you know, back to the drawing board, it really isthat place that we are at.
Tom McIlroy
Yousaid you'd like to better connect with women and young people, multiculturalcommunities and urban voters. It seems like a large slice of the votingpopulation just in those different groups. Give me a sense of what that lookslike for you personally in New South Wales and in your portfolio areas.
Senator Maria Kovacic
And,you know, often you can be one individual and actually fall into all of thosecategories, Of course. Yeah. So, you know, I'm a first generation Australian,so I'm a product of multiculturalism in our country. I'm somebody that verymuch values and, you know, understands the opportunity that Australia deliversand why people come here. My parents came here to give us a better life. Theycame here because it is the land of opportunity and the land of aspiration. AndI think we need to reconnect to those things in a better way. And you know,when you talk about cross portfolios, you know, you talk about multiculturalismand you talk about women, they aren't effectively pigeonholes, but you have tolook at how the nuances of the different policy areas say housing and theeconomy impact those particular groups and ensure that you communicate thosepolicies in a way that actually leans into the priorities of different groups. Itdoesn't mean we're sort of succumbing to any form of identity politics. It'sactually understanding the community that you're talking to, understanding thecommunity that you're representing, where a representative democracy andactually ensuring that the policies you put forward are actually aligned withthe things that matter most to those people.
Tom McIlroy
Letme ask you two more questions along those lines. I'll ask one about labor andone about the Coalition. Labor talks a lot about the gender equity split in theparty and in the Cabinet that they've been working on that for a few decadesnow and it's reached parity. Do you think that they do a better jobrepresenting women because of that parity?
Senator Maria Kovacic
Ithink that they just do a different job to what we do. But obviously, in arepresentative democracy, when you have got your party room reflecting yourcommunity in the way that they do, they're going to have different and deeperinsights than otherwise you would. So I think that they have done well in thatregard.
Tom McIlroy
Andis there a lesson for the Coalition and for the Liberal Party there in the daysafter the election? You talked about female representation in the party. Yousaid that the lack of women in the Liberal Party ranks was not just a politicalliability but a structural failure. Tell us a little bit about that and howthat structural failure should be fixed, in your opinion.
Senator Maria Kovacic
Myview is that we need to look at quotas. We have relied on organic growth toincrease female participation for a long time, and that just hasn't deliveredthe results for a number of different reasons. And people point to differentthings. And some of the objections to quotas within the party historically havebeen around the identity politics that I sort of raised with you earlier. Butthe mood in the party has changed. People who had historically said, no, thisthis is not what we need to do. We can allow people to be elevated on merit.Are now saying, lechlade, you know, we don't have enough women in our federalparliament. We need to have more women. We need to have more women representingus. And we need to actually draw more women into our party organisation aswell. And unless we have federal and state representatives that reflect thecommunity more broadly, then people aren't going to join our party in thenumbers that they have historically. But also they're going to be less likelyto vote for us. And that's where I talk about the political and the structuralimperatives of it. So these are things that I live conversations with in ourparty and important ones, because ultimately our job is to be a party ofgovernment and to do that effective. We need to be able to representeffectively the people that want to vote for us, and perhaps we haven't giventhem good reason or good enough reason to vote for us over the last couple ofelections. And that's why we've had the results that we have.
Tom McIlroy
We'respeaking in a week where there's been criticism of Liberal Party elders, blokeswho have made comments that fell pretty flat with the party. Tell me about thepeople who don't support quotas inside the Liberal Party. Do you think thatthey are out of step with the community more broadly? Do you think you canovercome that kind of opposition going forward?
Senator Maria Kovacic
Well,I wouldn't reflect on, you know, the views of others. But what I would say issome of the discussion historically has been around merit. You can still besomebody that is a person of merit and, you know, be given a position on thebasis of a quota. The reality is, who determines merit? Who decides? It'ssubjective, right? Do you decide or do I decide? And that that merit has a biason it based on, you know, our knowledge of that individual, the things that wevalue as being important or more import than what somebody else might. So theseare the challenges. I've often designed it to like the structure of a footballteam and grassroots development. So if you've got a a grassroots pathway that'sdelivering a lot of plays in the forwards, but no backs, do you keep fillingyour team with the forwards, even though you need some fast backs to win?
Tom McIlroy
It'sa good it's a good analogy. However, there are powerful people in all organisations,football clubs as well as political parties, even media organisations. Andsometimes they resist change because they see it as a way for their power to bediluted. Any concern about that?
Senator Maria Kovacic
Ithink all of us are creatures of comfort and most of us do resist change. Ithink the important thing when you're leading any organisation, whether it's apolitical one or a commercial one, is you need to bring people on the journeyof change rather than enforcing change. And I think that's when the challengescome in. So it's an important conversation for our party, and it's alsoimportant that so many people are actually coming on board now and actuallyacknowledging that this is a pathway that we need to actually adopt andproperly consider and ultimately implement in order to ensure that we docontinue to be a party of government and that we don't become irrelevantbecause we're not reflecting modern Australia.
Tom McIlroy
SussanLeigh He's got a big job in that rebuilding effort that you describe. Gettingback to the level of being a party of government and offering voters acompelling message. Tell me some of the ways you think she differs from herpredecessor, Peter Dutton, and if you think she has the right stuff for therebuilding effort.
Senator Maria Kovacic
SoI'll focus on Sussan rather than comparing her to anybody else to be open. Sussanis an excellent leader. She's an excellent communicator and she's somebody thatI trust. And I trust her because she does what she's what she says she's goingto do. And I think that is really important. It's about understanding thatthere are diverse views in any organisation and in our organisation. It is apolitical party that drills down into a party room and it's actually respectseeing those different views and understanding that each of those views needsto be aired and ventilated in any formulation of policy or policy development.And that's how Sussan has started her leadership. And I think that that is acritical step forward for us because it highlights that we are a political organisationthat intends to lead for the people that will vote for us, that will. And whenyou look at a party room, it's not about saying, Oh, I don't like that voice orI don't like that voice because it's not in alignment with my own. The realityis that every single person in that party room has been elected by theirconstituents. So that means they represent voices in the community. But it'sabout actually saying each of those voices should be heard so that we canunderstand what the different priorities across our country is so that we don'tignore one group over another. It's very clear at the moment that people inmetropolitan cities and in the suburbs of those cities don't feel they're beingheard by our party because they haven't voted for us. So that is somethingimportant for us to understand and to learn from as we move forward throughthis next period of opposition.
Tom McIlroy
Theventilation of arguments and ideas that you describe might have been one of thethings that was missing in the last term. I think some liberals are prepared tosay that more policy debate would have put you in a better position to go intothe election campaign. I wonder what your views on that.
Senator Maria Kovacic
Ithink they're valid comments. And it's also important, you know, unity isimportant when you have a shared mission that everybody is behind that mission.But I think the importance in ensuring that that is successful in its end isthat there is proper consideration of those different views in the formulationof those policies. And that's clearly something that we need to do better.
Tom McIlroy
You'vetalked about your family's migrant heritage and you've got a fascinating story.Your your parents came to Australia. You grew up in Canberra. You've runbusinesses and raised a family in suburban Sydney. Does a voter like yououtside the party have a compelling message to look at the Liberals at thispoint, or is that part of the sales problem that that you might haveexperienced in the campaign?
Senator Maria Kovacic
Ithink it's part of a communication problem and it's one of the reasons thatI've made a decision to speak out more so in relation to these matters, becauseI think it's important for people to say that the Liberal Party includes peoplelike me, and it doesn't just include people like the gentleman that made thecomments about assertive women. That shouldn't be the narrative out there. Thereality is we are a broad group of people who have a broad group of views whoare aligned by a core set of values. And Sussan has mentioned this before. Ourpolicies can change, our values don't. And I think it's important for us to beable to articulate those values behind our policy positions, which again, youknow, is something that we have been sent a very clear message that we need todo better. So my answer to you is yes, I think I am somebody that candemonstrate to the broader community what the Liberal Party is like in itsentirety, not just in one subset.
Tom McIlroy
Andnot to keep looking too far back on the last election. But let me ask you onepolicy question. You were very strong on your opinion on nuclear the nuclearpolicy under Peter Dutton. You said that as a party of free markets and smallgovernment, taxpayer funded, owned and operated nuclear power plants was a bitout of step. What about the position that's now been agreed? That seems to becloser to dropping the moratorium on nuclear power and letting the marketdecide.
Senator Maria Kovacic
Yeah.So for me, there were elements in that policy, as I've articulated before,around taking the markets out of those decisions. And I think by lifting themoratorium, which I don't have an issue with, it actually brings the marketsback in. That's that's the liberal philosophy. You know, free markets, let themdecide. Let's see what happens. We don't know what kind of technologyinvestment may or may not occur. And the answers around developing a futurenuclear policy need to be hinged on that. If it's clear that markets are notinterested in us, well, then there's no point. You know, investing more time indeveloping something in that detail. Again. But if the markets tell us, okay,we might be interested in this element or that element or there are some newemerging technologies, then great, let's have a look at that. But ultimately,we can't in a free market economy, dictate what is going to happen. And on topof that, dictate to organisations that already own assets and investments andactually say, well, we're actually going to change the playing field upon whichyou can operate, that shouldn't be the case.
Tom McIlroy
Whatabout the debate of net zero and the coalition's position going forward? Giveus a sense of the contribution that you'll make to your colleagues as as thatdebate plays out.
Senator Maria Kovacic
SoI'm on the record. I believe climate change is real. I think our pathway to netzero is something that we should continue. Ultimately, we believe as a as theLiberal Party in reducing emissions and ensuring that we are part of a globaleffort to reduce those emissions. In terms of developing further policies,again, that's going to be a matter for the party room. But I think it's reallyimportant that we don't talk about, oh, is it real or isn't it real? It's real.And our job is now to determine how we're going to reduce emissions and ensurethat we don't leave a significant problem for future generations in terms ofhow they're going to manage the impacts of climate on our environment and onour economy. This is not just an environmental imperative, it's an economicimperative. And we have some great opportunities with our solar and windresources in Australia to actually become global leaders in that space. Andthat's something that we should focus on as an opportunity rather than to bediscussing, you know, on ideological grounds. Are we pro nuclear or pro solaror gas or whatever it is? Let's find a solution for people then ensures we getour emissions down and we have clean and cheap energy. I think that's whatAustralians are looking for us to do.
Tom McIlroy
Youmust be concerned some people in the joint Coalition party room don't sharethose views and that could be difficult to reconcile in the coming debate, Ithink.
Senator Maria Kovacic
Well,it will be our job to have those discussions respectfully and to actually cometo an outcome that we know that the vast majority of Australians support.Again, I'd point to us being a representative democracy. We need to ensure thatthe people who vote for us feel that what we're going to do is aligned withwhat's important to them. Otherwise, guess what? They're not going to vote forus again yet to comment before it will be in diminishing numbers. If we don'tlisten, it's not going to get better for us. It will get worse.
Tom McIlroy
Thediminishing numbers that you speak about is a fascinating trend affecting bothof the big parties. I think something like a third of voters have walked awayfrom the big parties. Give me your reflections on that trend, the rise ofindependents and the growth on the crossbench. Do you think that the Coalitionand Labor can win back those voters or do you think that that trend has changedin Australian politics on a permanent basis?
Senator Maria Kovacic
Ithink the next election will tell us a little bit more clearly. I think it'sprobably too soon to point to a trend and one of the reasons I say that, andthis is my view as opposed to, you know, I'm not all knowing or anything likethat, but it's more around. Labor has a super majority in the House now. Theyhave quite a significant opportunity to to set an economic agenda and manyother agendas of their choosing. The relevance of the crossbench in the Houseis now diminished, so it'll be up to the voters in those electorates toactually determine whether or not their vote continuing to be placed with thoseindependents delivers them better outcomes or whether their vote is going to bebetter returned to one of the two parties of government. And I think theperformance of those independents and what the government does over the nextterm and how we perform as a constructive opposition will actually inform thatshifting shape moving forward. But, you know, obviously those sticky voters,the voters that are loyal and traditionalists, those numbers have reduced overtime for both ourselves and labor. But let's see what happens over the nextcouple of years.
Tom McIlroy
Apartfrom anything else, it's going to be fascinating to watch in Parliament. Imean, Anthony Albanese and Sussan Ley going head to head will be quite adifferent dynamic from the last Parliament.
Senator Maria Kovacic
Yeah,and she's formidable. I say underestimate her at your own peril.
Tom McIlroy
That'sgreat. Alright, a last question for you, Senator, and thank you again forjoining us. It's been a good chat. You're you've got a busy demanding job. Tellus about a day when you had no work commitments, when you had complete freetime to relax or do whatever you want. Give us a sense of you outside of thepolitical sphere.
Senator Maria Kovacic
Ihaven't had one of those in quite some time, but when I do, I like to prioritisemy family. I think that is really important. I think for two reasons because ittakes you back to the human element and who you are, and it's very grounding,but also it's those people that give you the greatest perspective around whyyou're doing what you're doing. But from a purely selfish perspective, I liketo read and go for walks and I love to cook for my family, but I don't haveanywhere near enough time to do any of those things. I would like to do moreand I'll be better at that. I think.
Tom McIlroy
That'sgreat. While New South Wales Liberal SenatorMaria Kovacic, thank you so much for joining us. It's great to have youon the podcast.
Senator Maria Kovacic
Thankyou.
[ENDS]